Islamofascism Speaker Misses The Point
Note: This article was published today in the Brown Daily Herald. Originally a blog post, it was written in response to a recent speech by Robert Spencer who visited the campus for Islamofascism Week. As I outline here, I think it is a serious mistake to reference random passages in the Koran in order to paint Islam as inherently violent or oppressive. It's the interpretation that matters, and there are very broad differences in how Muslims view their faith. Most don't, in fact, believe in those more violent or exclusivist elements that Spencer and other such commentators are quick to cite.
There was an elephant in the room during Robert Spencer's provocative speech last Thursday night. Spencer, the director of the website Jihad Watch, spoke as part of "Islamofascism Awareness Week" and presented a simple but highly controversial argument: that Islam is a religion of violence and oppression. Citing passages in the Quran, Spencer suggested that the Islamic faith inherently condones misogyny, abuse of homosexuals, authoritarianism and the
killing of non-believers. "I do not believe that Islam at its core is a peaceful religion," he said.
But while there is little debate that segments of the Quran could be read as a justification for bigotry or abuse, what Spencer left unsaid - a glaring omission that many in the audience later commented on - is that the overwhelming majority of Muslims don't actually follow the passages that he cited. Throughout the Islamic world, there is little support for the notion that apostates should be killed, that non-Muslims should be taxed separately or that women should be mistreated. As with all religions, most adherents of Islam view the Quran as flexible and open to interpretation. While certain passages are embraced and followed carefully, others are tacitly rejected and ignored.
In fact, there are numerous ways of reading and interpreting the Quran in its historical context. As'ad AbuKhalil, a professor of political science at California State University, Stanislaus, suggested in a recent phone conversation that there is a "very broad interpretation of Islam across many different countries and cultures."
In 2003, AbuKhalil debated Spencer for FrontPage Magazine, an online conservative publication. Responding to Spencer's assertion that Islam inherently condones violence and misogyny, he pointed out that it is absurd to cite random passages of the Quran and assume that "every Muslim is now looking for a pagan to kill, or that every Muslim engages in the beating of his wife." The reality, he said, is that "people of every religion react to their holy text, whether it is the word of God or prophet, with much more flexibility." Only fanatics follow the more "disturbing, intolerant, and exclusivist elements of the three holy religions."
Indeed, as AbuKhalil indicates, the nature of a religion's holy book is rarely a good indicator of whether or not its followers will adopt violence or radicalism. Instead, it is the interpretation - dependent on numerous social, political and material factors - that is transmitted by local religious authorities and community leaders that matters most.
Few would disagree, for instance, that the Bible contains many of the same intolerant elements that the Quran does. The Old and New Testaments include passages that could be read as condoning the objectification of women, violence towards non-believers, and the abuse of slaves. Take Samuel I 15:2-3: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." Or Ephesians 5:22-23: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife..." Or read Titus 2:9-10, in which it is stated that "slaves (are) to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them..."
Despite these passages, most observers would not argue that Christians and Jews believe in the subjugation of women, the continuation of slavery or harsh punishment for non-believers. As with Islam, most of those who follow the Judeo-Christian faiths disregard certain passages in favor of more tolerant ones.
Although Spencer was quick to paint Islam as flawed and incompatible with international human rights norms, the reality is much more nuanced, as events in the Muslim world over the past few years illustrate. Consider the following examples: a prominent Saudi cleric, and a former mentor to Osama bin Laden, recently argued that Islam rejects all forms of violence "regardless of what justification is given"; the ruling Islamist party in Turkey has passed the greatest expansion of women's rights in almost a century; Iranian citizens came out in huge numbers after 9/11 to protest against terrorism; the Muslim king of Morocco has allowed women to become imams; and Egypt's largest opposition political party, the Muslim Brotherhood, openly affirms pluralism, democracy and welfare for women.
The ways in which Islam, with roughly 1.6 billion adherents, is understood and practiced vary dramatically across different cultures and regions. Citing harshly-worded parts of the Quran to suggest that Islam is inherently a religion of violence and oppression, as Spencer did in his speech, dehumanizes its followers and irresponsibly ignores the vast majority of Muslims who do not subscribe to such an interpretation. Regrettably, rather than building ties and commonalities between people of different faiths and backgrounds, Spencer used his appearance here at Brown to sharpen divisions and to perpetuate false and destructive stereotypes.



160 comments:
"Few would disagree, for instance, that the Bible contains many of the same intolerant elements that the Quran does."
But yet only Muslims in such a great numbers, take them to heart. Why is that?
Spencer recently responded to this piece on www.jihadwatch.com.
"There is little support for the notion that apostates should be killed, that non-Muslims should be taxed separately or that women should be mistreated."
You are sugar-coating the reality of mainstream Islamic interpretation, which teaches that dominance over the infidel is Godly.
Do you see Christians waging ongoing war against Amalikites? The Koranic verses (and the reliable hadiths), in contrast, speak of a war that is ongoing and will continue until Allah is worshipped throughout the world in accordance with Koranic teachings. And Koranic teachings (including fatalism) are what causes the Islamic world to live in poverty (when oil wealth is not available) and despotism.
Your contact with Robert Spencer is a healthy development; I believe you want to know what is true and what is deception. An example of deception is the repeated quoting of "There is no compulsion in religion," which refers to the internal experience of religion, not the treatment of religious minorities. Another example is hiding the doctrine of abrogation, which teaches that the historically later verses of the Koran take precedence over the earlier ones.
Islam is primarily a social order, a political system. It is not prejudice to see this; it is prejudice not to.
The resurgence of Islam is bad news, and the acceptance of Islamic immigration is just crazy.
Thank God we are still allowed to say this.
"Few would disagree, for instance, that the Bible contains many of the same intolerant elements that the Quran does."
Except those who have read both. Those people would recognize a typical appeal to popular misconception when they hear it. Violence in the Quran is normative. In the Bible it's nearly always descriptive or something which was ignored from the beginning.
I notice you simply don't bother listing any of the direct calls for violence in the Quran, like 2.191 et seq, 3.151, 8.012, 8.060, 9.005, 9.029, 9.111, 47.004 and so on, and so on. Not trying to be comprehensive, just hitting a few high points. Actually comparing would require critical thinking and would undo your preconceived conclusion.
Normally when comparing two things, people who pretend to be academic give examples from both sides.
FluffResponse,
Thats a very good point. Big difference between going to war with the Amalikites and with the non-believers/infidels.
I responded to this post here
Jeb you ignorent apologist. God help you when the mahamoudins come for you and yours. Try and tell them that you understand their plight and maybe they wont seperate your head from your neck. good luck fool!
First of all, Spencer has on many occasions said that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not subscribe to jihadist interpretations. His point (and this is just me speaking) is it is very difficult on theological grounds to refute the jihadi position, given the explicit support the Koran gives to waging war on non-Muslims. And, as long as that is not done, we are always at risk of attack. Further, he has found scant evidence of any Muslim counter-jihad.
If you read the Koran, you will find it replete with exhortations to attack, to wage battle, directions on how to kill people, passages explictly attacking Jews (and Christians, though I think more Jews). The Old Testament's harsh rules (in Leviticus) have never been followed, not even by the most religious of sects; there is very little in the New Testament that you can use as a basis for killing others. The battles described in the OT are treated as historical; the Koran is supposedly a model for everyone to follow. Quite a difference.
Jeb,
Don't compare christianity two hundred years ago with islam today, that's anachronistic. Or rather, don't compare islam with any religion at all. The west is secular. Compare islam with what we have today -- enlightenment, human rights. We are not perfect by all means, but islam is not the answer to any of our problems.
All major branches of islam are literalist. The Quran is God's words, revelead, eternal. If you say something in the Quran is not right, you go against God. The Quran is more like Jesus than the bible. You say that muslims today doesn't practice the darker sides of islam. Does that mean there's a reform going on in islam? That some major aspects of islam and the Quran is undergoing considerable reinterpretation? Go to a mosque and try to talk for your point of view and see what happens.
To the anonymous commenter above,
You show your true cowardly colors by not providing your name with your comment. Learn how to properly react to a point you may disagree with, instead of your nonsensical childish statement.
Jeb,
Happy belated. The good news here, is that few find Spencer's arguments to be persuasive. To those who do believe Spencer's words, perhaps he should circulate enlistment papers after his speeches. Since, they fear this grave threat, perhaps they should volunteer to fight it.
A Danish language researcher has spent over three years analyzing the original texts of ten different religions, and concludes that the Islamic texts stand out by encouraging terror and violence to a larger degree than other religions do. Four years after the terror attacks at the World Trade Center, Danish linguist Tina Magaard presents an analysis that questions Islam’s relationship with terror, violence and Holy War.
Islamic texts encourage terror and fighting to a far larger degree than the original texts of other religions, concludes Tina Magaard. She has a PhD in Textual Analysis and Intercultural Communication from the Sorbonne in Paris, and has spent three years on a research project comparing the original texts of ten religions. “The texts in Islam distinguish themselves from the texts of other religions by encouraging violence and aggression against people with other religious beliefs to a larger degree. There are also straightforward calls for terror. This has long been a taboo in the research into Islam, but it is a fact that we need to deal with," says Tina Magaard. Moreover, there are hundreds of calls in the Koran for fighting against people of other faiths. “If it is correct that many Muslims view the Koran as the literal words of God, which cannot be interpreted or rephrased, then we have a problem. It is indisputable that the texts encourage terror and violence. Consequently, it must be reasonable to ask Muslims themselves how they relate to the text, if they read it as it is," says Tina Magaard.
"The good news here, is that few find Spencer's arguments to be persuasive."
Thats good news? Then I guess you would view the Islamicfication of Europe as "good news"
Quite frankly, I find anyone who uses the term Islamofacism as intellectually lazy. Islam is not a homogeneous religion, just as nearly every religion isn't. Radical Shiites in Iran, who may support terrorism, could have a completely different agenda, then say a radical Sunni in Indonesia who supports terrorism. I would be hardpressed to include them under one umbrella, and a term that does so is ineffective in describing the challenges we face against terrorism.
Jeb,
It is true that most secular Muslims (which make 80%)do not follow the violent passages, but the truth is that those Muslims are ignorant of their scriptures. Those guys are helpless when presented with the interpretations of jihadists, they can't argue with jihadists holding Quran and suna in their hands. There are about 15% Muslims who know scriptures and those guys support death for apostacy and suicide bombing in US and UK. Read the opinion polls, please.
Regrding verses of violence in Bible you cited: are you capable of distinguishing narrations of stories from normative sentences, that give some marching orders? This should not requre Ph.D. in semantics or pragmatics and you do not need to read the Tractatus of Wittgenstein. Comare semantics of verses you cited with semantics of the following:
5.51 O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).
60.1 O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists, etc.) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth (i.e. Islamic Monotheism, this Qur'an, and Muhammad SAW), and have driven out the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) and yourselves (from your homeland) because you believe in Allah your Lord! If you have come forth to strive in My Cause and to seek My Good Pleasure, (then take not these disbelievers and polytheists, etc., as your friends). You show friendship to them in secret, while I am All-Aware of what you conceal and what you reveal. And whosoever of you (Muslims) does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray, (away) from the Straight Path .
2.193 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
8.39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.
9.5 Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
There are canonical texts that tell how to interprete Quran, they are called tafsirs. If you have had chance to read all those things...you would change you mind.
good luck with your studies
"Quite frankly, I find anyone who uses the term Islamofacism as intellectually lazy."
I agree. Since Islam is facist itself, its pointless to call it Islamofacism.
I love the term "radical" whem applied to Islamic terrorists. Would you concider the founder of Islam a "radical"?
The point is that while not all muslims follow these passages, they do to a far higher extent than any other religion. Here in Australia for instance, muslims have a dramatically higher rate of crime than any other group, especially crimes against women and gays, and it is similar throughout europe. To say that it is as easy to dismiss Spencers arguments against the koran as it is with the old testament is not dealing with reality.
"As with all religions, most adherents of Islam view the Quran as flexible and open to interpretation."
Can anyone cite some actual books by mainstream Muslim Clerics that give a moderate exegesis of the Koran and the Hadiths?
Has any Mainstream Muslim Cleric ever published a refutation of the jihad-terrorist theological arguments presented by Al-Qaeda?
Has any Mainstream Muslim Cleric ever argued that the Koran is compatible with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
Read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights here... http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/universal.html
If the bulk of Muslims in the world today are moderate then such books should not be hard to find.
Mohommed committed murder, rape, conquest, robbery, deciet, trickery, child molestation, polygammy, torture, slavery, and incitement to violence.
Please show me where Jesus commited ANY of these same acts?
Have you ever heard the old saying: "monkey see, monkey do?"
Except monkey treat each other much more humanely than Muslims do.
All anyone has to do is read history books about the 1400 years of violence, war and death Islam has brought to the world.
Historical facts cannot be ignored........
"The good news here, is that few find Spencer's arguments to be persuasive."
Judging from the comments here, the good news is that increasing numbers of people are waking up to the threat, though there remains disagreement on how to respond to the "moderate" (that is, the relatively unobservant) Muslim.
The good news is also that Jeb is likely to reconsider the issue.
It seems that the week on campus is making possible a more truthful evaluation of Islam on the part of people who have not previously seen through the deceptions.
More comments can be found about this subject on www.jihadwatch.org
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/018655.php#comments
Hello Jeb,
Your assertion that Islam is very diverse and there are lots of opinions on various subjects is completely misleading. All schools of Islam agree about all important issues that are shocking to a Western public and no doubt shocking to you as well. The reason is very simle indeed. Islam is based on the Quran and the Sahih Hadith. Those texts are not difficult to understand. They leave no doubt about the following points:
- apostates of Islam have to be killed; there are only differences on the procedures to be followed but not on the principle itself
- adulterers have to be stoned. Mohammad even applied stoning on Jews who had stopped that practice even though it was still written in their books at that time; so you will not be surprised that under islamic law also the people of the book have to be stoned for adultery
- the hands of the thieves have to be cut
- Jihad is war against non-believers to establish the religion
- a muslim woman can not get married to a christian man
- muslims are not to befriend non-muslims
- polytheists like hindus have no right to live
A muslim who says he follows the Quran and the Sunna follows all this.
Most islamic countries have abolished most of the barbarian islamic laws because they are, ..., well ... barbarian.
This does not mean that those laws have disappeared. No, they have been suppressed temporarily. In Egypt clerics are now demanding the reimplementation of the death penalty for apostacy. They merely want to apply what Mohammed has ordered. The Quran calls for believing in the Messenger and obeying him, not one time but more than 20 times. Those Egyptian clerics simply want to apply Islam.
Now tell me Jeb, can you reissue the Quran and the Sahih Hadith and leave out all disturbing passages, please?? As long as people keep repeating those violent passages during their prayers, the violent passages will remain ready for implementation.
cheers,
Jan
Wife-beating discussions on television shows in Islamic countries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58&eurl=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJkmRBEOC3o&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh7qiO3Ygnk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wseFgBocQrw&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouztv-tRPKM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nUI3TUdFCk
Why are vast numbers of Muslims in Europe segregating themselves? Allah said so:
"Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay, all honour is with Allah." (Qur'an 4:139)
"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?" (Qur'an 4:144)
"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." (Qur'an 5:51)
"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." (Qur'an 3:28)
What's the second greatest deed in Islam? Love your neighbor? Nope -- Wage jihad:
Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25; Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
What is jihad? Personal striving? Not according to this definition of jihad from the Noble Qu'ran translation by Mohammed Khan. This is a Muslim definition:
“Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”
Islam is peaceful and tolerant? Well . . . let the Muslims in a British mosque filmed undercover explain Islamic peace and tolerance and how much they respect the ladies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo
Paul Fregosi, in his book Jihad (pages 149 and 150) provides a tongue-in-cheek but accurate rendition of arguably the most attractive aspect of Jihad to a young Muslim male:
“From the youngest recruits to the most honored generals, the Jihad was always the inspiration of every Muslim male yearning for fame, power, honors, plunder, slaves, and virgins. Sex, if he survived, was the warrior's reward in his tent after battle, or even right there on the field. Sex, if he was killed, awaited him immediately in Paradise. It was an all-round no-lose situation for every Muslim man of spirit who was capable of bearing arms, fighting, and worshiping Allah. With this promise of felicity, Almanzor, like all great Arab war leaders, was never short of recruits ready to fight and die. For the Muslim warrior was always a winner. He always got the girl in the end, whether he was alive or dead.”
Of course, there is ultimately nothing whatsoever humorous about this, particularly from the perspective of the 100 million plus female victims of Jihad who have been raped and/or sold into sexual slavery on several continents over 1400 years. The sense of the term “get the girl” speaks voluminously to the difference between the status of women in Islam and in the West. For a Western man to “get the girl” implies a level of relational equality: he impresses her so that she chooses him. For an Islamic jihadi, “getting the girl” means using her for his sexual pleasure or taking her as his property.
I think I'm more critical than Jeb is about the current state of Islamic discourse, and I'm not opposed to labeling some regressive forms of Islam as 'fascistic' (though in calling Islam inherently fascistic, Richard and others betray how little they know about the history of real European fascism, and Islam). I also agree with some of you that Islamic thought is unique among modern major theologies for the atrocities it can justify, and the frequency with which Salafi radicals do just that.
But to those who argue that Islam itself is the problem, consider how much more likely American Muslims are to be liberal and, by the definition of the anonymous commenter from 12:17 pm, secular or nonobservant. Remember also that for the majority of Muslims in Indonesia (the world's most populous Muslim nation), Islamic practice is not grounded in literal interpretation of the Qur'an (in fact, it's a blend of traditional Islam and old local faiths).
In other words, what about regressive Arab Islamic groups makes our readers think Islam is the heart of the problem? I hope the answer is not just that Salafi radicals justify their actions 'in the name of Islam,' because that's hardly evidence that there is a causal relationship between the religion and its texts on the one hand, and barbarism on the other. Perhaps the problem is a civilizational one. Tribal and clan practices that long predate Islam (violence against non-believers, repression of women, hatred of minorities, etc.), but became intertwined with the religion as practiced by many Arab and North African groups, are the real culprit. Of course, they dominate the core of Islam's constituency, including the religion's birthplace, Saudi Arabia. But that does not make Islam itself the problem.
In fact, even if every abhorrent practices that we would all like to see stopped (and no, I don't think you'll find Salafi apologists here) stemmed solely from Islam, no critic is ever going to change a Muslim's mind about his religion by arguing that the whole thing is wrong. So why argue that way?
Why can't you talk about the wrong-headed practices themselves, and encourage more Muslims abroad to adopt the beliefs of mainstream American Muslims? I submit to some of our angrier readers that they'll find a more responsive audience for their ideas if they do, and they may be more able to advance tolerance, freedom, and peace.
Please try to enter Mecca. Please hold a woman's hand in Saudi Arabia and please steal a pack of gum from a 7-11 in Saudia Arabia. Then defend Islam's non-violent beliefs.
Anonymous, you just totally failed to respond to any of the points above. I know I can't enter Mecca (I'm a Christian), or hold a woman's hand in Saudi Arabia, or do a lot of things in the Muslim world that I can do in (most of) the West.
But that doesn't mean that a) Islam is fundamentally a violent or backwards religion, or b) arguing that Islam is all bad will do anyone any good.
You're just venting your anger, and while I share in your emotion, I suggest you do something useful with it, like study the political, social, and historical factors shaping Salafi radicalism so you can be part of a dialogue leading to a solution. Otherwise you're just Tom Tancredo minus a few hundred votes.
david dryer, a couple of comments:
1.) How do you know that the beliefs of mainstream American Muslims are that "moderate"? I am the mother of an adult convert to Islam. 80 percent of American Sunni mosques are funded by/controlled by Saudis. My son's mosque in an undisclosed middle-class suburb had sayings from Syed Qutab on its website (Qutab being Osama Bin Laden's spiriutal leader.)
2.) You contradict yourself in your second paragraph. You say "Islam is not the problem" and point to the syncretic beliefs of Indonesians as "proof." How is it proof that Islam is not the problem if the evidence cited is a religious tradition that is not fully Islam?
3.) "Perhaps the problem is a civilizational one." Yes, there are many Arab tribal practices reflected in Islam, such as the practice of taking the wives and daughters of conquered peoples as sex slaves. The problem is that Muhammad, the founder of Islam, also practiced many of these cruel cultural traditions. And all of these practices were recorded in the Sunnah and in some part in the Quran, and became part of Islamic law because Muhammad in Islam can do no wrong. Do you know what the Sunnah is?
--Caroline
I'm not quite the poet Henning is, but I expect all to compliment and finish this "lift" of his famous lyrics:
Come and listen to a story about a man named JEB
A poor MUSLIMEER, barely kept his readers fed,
Then one day he was shootin at the TRUTH,
And up through the ground came his PC RUSE.
David,
Is it not the case that 20+ percent of American Muslim poll respondents (perhaps because they have not yet seen fit to lie about this) either came out in favor of suicide bombings in some cases or refused to disavow Bin Laden. True, I don't recall the full detail; but that poll is one place to start to get a picture of your liberal American Muslim. The baed guys are not a majority? Well, no. History is often made by a minority; and the American Muslims include a lot of folks who would turn a blind eye to sedition, if not help it along.
I don't really understand your boldfaced sentence. There is no doubt that Islam did not spring fully formed from Mohammed's mind; and beyond tribal ways, there is the basic aggressiveness of the species. But the items you mention -- violence against non-believers, repression of women, hatred of minorities -- are made SACRED by Islam. The practices of Islam are wrong-headed; but they are inherent to the faith, whereas the other faiths try to overcome the aggressiveness, or channel it in socially beneficial ways.
"No critic is ever going to change a Muslim's mind about his religion by arguing that the whole thing is wrong." Some have left. If it were possible, wouldn't it be good to tear away the respectability of Islam ("Oh, you mean it's really not primarily a religion?") so that more will leave? The way to do that is to publicize the stories of the apostates, in their own voices, wiwth a new version of Radio Free Europe.
I wish more than anything to stop the ongoing immigration of a fifth column.
It is the marginalization of Islam -- and legal restrictions against political Islam -- that can help us maintain tolerance, peace, and freedom; and even be useful to Muslims who really don't want to have to deal with the reinforcement of Islamic norms that will come from a larger community.
Whether you perceive that America has Christian or Englightenment roots, please see that the affect of this immigration will be a permanent and expensive trouble of a kind that American has never seen. We know what will happen from the experience in Europe, where the native-born generation returns to a more authentic and therefore more violence-prone Islam.
A person's idea of God and righteousness is based on some body of scripture, including commentaries. When troubles come for individual Muslims and they seek solace, where will they go? To the source that teaches right from wrong -- which in this case involves the separateness, not of universal right from wrong, but of ummah from infidel, so that crimes against the latter are lesser crimes, if they are crimes at all.
Stop the immigration; be serious about alternatives to Saudi oil; renew the American spirit (partly by sexual conservatism and a return to the Churches and to the accepted place of Christianity in the public square); and stop payments to Islamic states.
We want Muslims to grow out of Islam over the millenia, rather than our accommodating their ever-increasing demands. Let's work to weaken their resolve to follow Mohammed, not undermine ourselves with a misplaced multiculturalism.
Basically, I think Islam sucks.
A trivially small number of the citizens in nuclear-armed Pakistan believe that an increased application of Islamic Law is desirable. How many citizens? Maybe as few as 60 percent.
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2007/11/pakistan_and_islamism.php
Here's a question to David Dryer: what would constitute evidence for you that the underlying ideology of islam was in some way making a sinister contribution to the world's wellbeing? Is there anything that would convince you? Or it is simply a matter of dogma to you that islam is not the problem?
There's nothing lazy about the term islamofascism: it is entirely cogent to characterize a common form of fascism as being infused with islamic ideology. Now, it is also the case that "fascist" is a common form of political insult (wielded frequently and ignorantly by the left - in my foolish youth days, I used to hurl the same epithet at Thatcher in England... I was wrong...). However, there is a common core of ideological principles that constitute a fascistic ideology. If these principles are rendered via islamic doctrine, islamofascism is a legitimate concept.
Here's a suggestion for all of us: refuse ever to take seriously anyone who accuses a speaker of "islamophobia." The speaker usually will not understand the cod-Freudian origin of this (mis-)use of the notion of phobia (it means fear - it has come to mean hate, via a simpleton's conception of sublimation...). I am a proud islamophobe - I am afraid of the potential impact of that ideology on my children - especially my daughter.
Jeb & Jeff,
I am your first anonymous in this thread. My apologies for being brief or "childish" in my first post. Since you called into question my patriotism or lack there of, “To those who do believe Spencer's words, perhaps he should circulate enlistment papers after his speeches. Since, they fear this grave threat, perhaps they should volunteer to fight it"
My twin sons are both Infantrymen, one has finished his contract, CIB (Iraq), as his brother begins his term of service and will deploy soon. I do believe radical Islam is a Grave Threat. Academics like you can become an unwitting "Fifth Colum"
Chris
OKC, OK
Caroline,
Yes I know what the Sunnah is, and please know that I'm not fond of condescension from a person who misspells names of the key players she talks about (Qutb or maybe Qtb for those of us who know Arabic, not Qutab), and inaccurately describes their relations (Qutb and Bin Laden never met, so Qutb was an author whose work and redefinition of jahiliyah was useful to Bin Laden and other terrorists, but Qutb was not his spiritual leader). The fact that Indonesian Islam includes outside influences doesn't change the fact that it is Islam. Christianity, which is overwhelmingly a force for good in the world, was reshaped for the better by enlightenment ideas and other outside influences, but it is nonetheless Christianity. By the same token, regressive Islamic practices shouldn't be forgiven, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater: Islam is a changing religion, and progressive Islamic practice (even if your son does not exemplify it) should give you reason to judge adherents of each religion individually, rather than as a monolithic whole. Consider this, Caroline: Islam is not going anywhere no matter how angry you get, so even if progress is frustrating and slow, why not fight regressive beliefs by encouraging change, rather than ineffectually arguing against a whole religion.
Ridge Lane,
I'm right with you on the silliness of the term Islamophobia, and if I had kids, I'd be worried about their being exposed to hateful ideologies of all kinds, including radical Islam.
On an academic note, real fascism (as in the ideology stemming from the 'fasces' conception of human interaction, yada yada) is different from authoritarianism or totalitariansim, either of which aptly describe Islamic practice in too many places. And sure, I could be convinced that an entire religion is bad to its core, and the world would be better off without it. But 1) I don't think Islam fits the bill, and 2) I can't be convinced that such a simplistic argument will ever do any good.
Honestly, Ridge Lane, do you hope to change regressive Muslims' beliefs? Will your arguments convince anyone not to convert, or will they help advance liberalism and respect for human rights and international law? Of course not. If you argue 'Islam is bad,' you get people fired up and accomplish nothing. If you argue 'A disproportionate number of Muslims have regressive beliefs,' you open up the possibility that more people, including progressive Muslims (who hold more sway with their co-religionists than you do) will actually engage in a dialog about specific problems in Muslims' cultural and religious practices. And again, if I had kids, for their sake I'd rather work for change than just express upset and exasperation.
I still havent recieved an an if Mohammed the founder of Islam would be concidered a "radical" or a "moderate".
That is recieved an answer. I also never received an answer for if the Qur'an are equal in violent passages, why is it that only Muslims in such large numbers take the violent passges to heart?
Two pretty staight forward questions I believe.
Okay, let me try to keep the phrase in mind: "A disproportionate number of Muslims have regressive beliefs."
The focus on not insulting Islam as a whole is what Robert Spencer is all about, by the way. Have we now come full circle in this thread and can now agree that the "false and destructive stereotypes" that Spencer perpetuated are simply accurate descriptions of what is going on in the world; and with the added benefit that he suggests a source for the "regressive beliefs"? And not only a source, but details on the religiously inspired deception that keeps us from understanding the source?
Think about that, for a moment: religiously inspired deception. Deception was not much applauded as a religious ideal in Sunday schools in years past, and not because we were so busy decrying the Amalikites.
I'd like to suggest that folks read some of the material on jihadwatch.org written by Hugh Fitzgerald, who in comparison to Robert Spencer is more forthright (or, if you prefer, less politically astute) in repeating that the immigration of Muslims to these shores adds expense, unpleasantness, and danger, especially in the long term. Just click "Hugh Fitzgerald" at the top.
Even if Islam itself is being misunderstood by a minority of its adherents (a "hijacked religion of peace"), the "disproportionate number" who will give us sadness should be enough reason to be concerned and to agree on supporting government investigations, restrictions, and ultimately, deportations.
yeah, right. we can barely agree on a problem definition.
Fluff,
Hugh has some great articles as well.
Richard,
Those are important questions. I for one am not an expert on the Qur'an or the history of Mohammad and the Salaf. But I suggest that in the long run, it doesn't matter if the Qur'an has more passages that explicitlly or implicitly condone violence, or if the central figure of the religion was a radical or a moderate. Here's why:
If we want to mitigate the impact of radicalism, condemning Islam in its entirety will inflame passions of those who agree and disagree with you, but accomplish nothing else. Instead, we should be talking about specific problems that can change. Even if you convince non-Muslims that Islam is, on balance, a force more for bad than good (which, despite how high-profile Islamic radicalism is, would be hard in light of the charitable work and positive social organization that Islam inspires world-wide), you won't change the regressive attitudes you're worried about.
If you were a Muslim, and were ambivalent about working to change other Muslims' attitudes about women's rights, political violence, etc., which argument would you find more compelling:
"Your religion is bad because it justifies evil things like terrorism. Becausey your religion is a net drain on society, it would be better if your religion did not exist."
or
"Since a disproportionate number of Muslims believe in political violence, Muslim leaders should work to change those attitudes, which would benefit Muslims and non-Muslims alike."
Obviously the latter argument is a more useful one, and the former will do nothing but drive a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims.
So relegate questions about Islam's history to professional historians, and focus instead on debate about specific areas of potential change that can improve the future.
Fluffresponse,
I was accepting the premise that "A disproportionate number of Muslims have regressive beliefs" for argument's sake.
Has it ever occurred to you that other religious, ethnic, or national groups, are more disproportionately inclined towards anti-Americanism, sympathy for political violence, and repression of minorities? I can't help but recall shocking scenes of Greeks (presumably Orthodox) rallying against the United States on 9/11 2001. Sounds weird, right? So should we close our borders to all Greeks? Should we examine, group by group, the statistical liklihood that someone will sympathize with radicals or propone democracy, rather judge people as individuals?
By the way, have you seen polling data on the rates at which people think suicide bombing and other political violence is acceptable? I'd love to see some evidence that Muslims really are disproportionately inclined towards regressive beliefs.
Or how about the data on preferene for democratic governance by country? Would you believe that a much greater proportion of Moroccans think that democracy is the best form of government than Americans do? I bet that surprises you, since you don't seem to be arguing from a very informed point of view.
And by the way, you still haven't addressed my most basic point: arguing that a religion is bad might inspire animus, but it won't accomplish anything else. Are you just looking to make people angry, or would you actually like to see progress in Islamic thought and practice? That's not a rhetorical question; I and everyone here would benefit from knowing what exactly your arguments are supposed to accomplish.
If you truly want to reform Islam, you have to first get the Islamic world to agree that Islam needs to be reform which would mean reforming the Qur'an.
Here is why its impossible to reform the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the written word of Allah, unlike the Bible which was written by man. Try asking some Muslims if Allah's words can be reformed.
Also its impossible to reform Islam because until the Muslim world admit Mohammed was a bad guy who was prone to violence and pedophila, you wont get reform. Try asking a Muslim if Mohammed was a pefect man or a man with flaws.
And still my question wasnt answered on why Muslims unlike Christians take violent passages to heart. Why is that?
But your allegedly good quote is precisely what Spencer says. So the basic thesis of this thread has been overturned. True? True.
"We should be talking about specific problems that can change." But, David, what if they are not changeable because belief is belief, and Islam has no mechanism for update except at the very edges (smite the dhimmi on the nose, not the head). What if Islam is NECESSARILY a regressive force, based as it is on the supposed last revelation? What if, by not admitting or accepting this, we do not follow policies that have the best chance of protecting us from its necessarily "regressive" (that is, childish), destructive effects?
You may admit the possibility, but feel that admission is not helpful. But if it hastens our closing the borders (and other policies that might follow from a clear-eyed understanding of a growing threat), the admission is a step in coping, not merely in insulting.
Am sorry to have said "I think Islam sucks." Weakened the argument. How about this? Islam is what it is. And unlike any other religion but like (for example) 20th century fascism and the KKK, it requires a means of defense.
Rational debate starts with an agreement about what words mean, and what is (and is not) correct and true. This principle is not a million miles from observations by Confucius on the rectification oif names. We did not start the campaign to rid the world of apartheid in South Africa by refusing to name it as a bad thing, or by arguing that - "well, all forms of intolerance are bad..." No, we said "South Africa is a monstrous regime..." It is not necessary to state at the same time that "Britain used to be a terrible place, and the English were very mean to thr Scots two hundred years ago... but, even though we are all bad, we reallly want to undeerstand the pain of the white South Africans as we try to persuade them to stop mistreating black people." No. We said: South Africa is conducting evil behaviour. HAVING DONE THAT, we can then talk tactics - engagement versus isolation, etc.
We are not at a point of being able to have an honest discussion about tactics towards islamic inclinations to totalitarianism, as we insist on polluting the debate with drivel over the moral equivalence of all the Abrahamic religions, with talk of "all religious fundamentalism being wrong," etc. Yes, McVeigh claimed to be Christian. His cat was not in the name of Chritianity. It matters not - the vast majority of terrorism is carried out in the name of islam, with no string of fatwas to condemn the perpetrators. It's hard even to get honest condemnations: instead, we get "Islam forbids the killing of innocents," with alll the wriggle room over who is and is not innocent.
There is a legitimate debate to be had about the best strategies and tactics for engaging civilized muslims in combatting the worst elements of their religion. That debate starts when muslims rise up and say "not in my name!" about the suicide bombers in Israel, about OBL, and other scum. Remaining a member of the KKK is not a moral choice, just because you don't actually engage in lynchings.
David,
>>>Caroline,
Yes I know what the Sunnah is, and please know that I'm not fond of condescension from a person who misspells names of the key players she talks about (Qutb or maybe Qtb for those of us who know Arabic, not Qutab),
Attacking someone over their spelling is just childish and doesn't do anything for your argument. Besides, how can one mispell anything in Arabic in Latin script? Latin translations are only an approximation of sounds from the Arabic script. Some people use "Usama" for "Osama" and some people use "Umar" for the 2nd of the Rashudin instead of "Omar" when they translate into Latin script. I've seen the name of the 3rd of the Rashudin spelled four ways: "Uthman", "Othman," "Osman" and "Usman" -- all by reputable sources. Bin Laden was indeed inspired by "Milestones." I asked if you knew what the Sunnah was because you didn't seem to understand that many of the reprehensible aspects of Islam emanate from it, and it purports to be a record of everything Muhammad said or did. Since Muhammad can do no wrong in the Islamic viewpoint, that's a big problem.
I'm not impressed with your reply about Indonesia either. Is "Santeria" a representation of mainstream Christianity?
--Caroline
ah, i thought you were agreeing with the "disproportionate number" theory. too bad; I think the statement is true.
but you're right. some number of greeks celebrated 9/11, as did palestinians. here are links:
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/gapmustbebridged.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k
I don't know the cause of Greek animus. Someone else might add their insight.
A greater proportion of Morrocans than Americans think that democracy is the best form of government? It will be hard to find that clip. If that's true, you must admit the possibility that the Moroccan understanding of democracy is simply voting power, when the heart of democracy is respect for minority rights.
I assume my previous note answered your question. my arguments are supposed to wake up people who (thanks to the likes of Robert Spencer) are already sensing that, while disaffected Greeks may be assuaged by a reversal of some aspect of American policy (though the envy issue will remain), many Muslims will not be assuaged.
Are you suggesting that 20+ percent of non-Muslims anywhere would refuse to disavow Al Quaida?
Okay, I'm tired of myself; it is depressing to write this, as it is to read it. The depressing nature of my attitude -- the sense that the belief system of Muslims, a diverse people who inhabit a huge swath of conquered land, is itself a significant problem -- doesn't mean that my attitude is not based on a correct reading of reality.
David,
I'm interested in your comments that suggest dialogue - your comparison of labelling islam as evil vs. illustrating problems with its political outcroppings - but how exactly do you propose to isolate these attitudes and cull them out? Islam is nearly always portrayed as a "complete lifestyle", and not merely the side-pocket of a social society. Rejection of islam, thereby, is taken as the basest treachery both in the political and religious sense (i.e. the shahada).
Your position that "islam is not going to go away" is accurate: it is not going to go away. But neither was the Communist Bloc. Communism was only brought down after a long concerted campaign of outreach, and an iron curtain (to borrow, in reverse) of secrecy and diligent protection. This would frankly not be a bad strategy for dealing with islam either, particularly as it's the same strategy used for the past 1400 years; I also point out the short-term existence of communism (which I criticize in Soviet practice, not in the theory of communism per se) compared to the civilizational threat of islam. A solid, impenetrable front is the West's best defense, frankly; whatever the good intentions of individual muslims (who oft go silent whilst the radicals speak; the eternal and tacit approval of tribalism), muslim societies all (all) exhibit intolerance of their religious minorities. Only a complete fool would ignore this. It is therefore a resoundingly good idea to maintain that separation. If there is to be dialogue, let there be real dialogue, without apologists diverting the issues from safely within.
Geoff P
Well, you tacitly admitting that Spencer is right by pointing out that certain reforms are happening. Maybe if Spencer and his ilk turn up the heat more, they would reform more. But look at Saudi Arabia's dismal human rights record and remember that they are the heart of Islam
My favorite line by David.
"I know I can't enter Mecca (I'm a Christian)"
Why is it ok for Muslims to discriminate based on their religion but we must bend over backwards to respect Islam?
Just that you made that statement and found nothing wrong with it. Just accepted it as normal is disturbing in itself.
Richard and Geoff P.,
First, Richard, I don't think discrimination by anyone is okay. As I've said time and time again, let's condemn bias and regressive attitudes. We would be remiss to ignore the retrograd practices that define Islam for many people, and we would be remiss not to recognize the correlation between many iterations of Islam on the one hand, and unforgivable intolerance/sympathy for political violence on the other.
But by condemning those practices instead of the religion as a whole, you 1) don't needlessly lose the most important part of your audience: Muslims who are moderate and progressive, and eager to see Islam understood differently here and abroad (and yes, there are many people who fit this bill), and 2) you make your argument a more relevent one that can be consistently applied to fight intolerance and political violence in more contexts than one. Don't forget that some of the most vicious terrorist groups in Middle East history were nationalist (Abu Nidal, for example). By showing how any ideology can be a progressive nonviolent one, we'll do more to advance the causes of freedom and justice here and abroad.
Geoff P.,
You make excellent points, but Islam is very different from communism. First, communism evolved as a hostile response to capitalism, so the two systems were always diametrically opposed, making confrontation likely. Islam evolved in opposition to gang-like clan rule, political and social disorder in 7th century Arabia. It is also much older and more entrenched -- unlike the populations of Easter bloc states, Muslims generally want to be Muslims, and aren't forced converts whose grandparents had a different, and preferable, way of life. To topple communism you had to topple communist political monopolies. How exactly would you undermine or end a religion practiced by more than a billion people?
More importantly, why would you want to? Communism necessarily impoverishes its practitioners (literally and figuratively). For all the critiques we've seen of Islam here, there are too many examples of Muslim communities that are enriched and improved by their religion to ignore. Even if the majority of Muslims held unsavory beliefs (and I don't think that's the case), that would not discredit the religion itself. Let's work with an absurd hypothetical: if you convinced every Muslim in the world to convert (to any other faith), do you really think disaffected Saudi youth or ethno-religious militias in Iraq would suddenly embrace Western democracy?
I don't see what other conclusion your arguments lead to. I think your arguments are strong and well reasoned, so I really am eager to hear your response.
"Islam evolved in opposition to gang-like clan rule, political and social disorder in 7th century Arabia."
Thats a laugh.
"Muslims who are moderate and progressive"
If they are, its not because of Islam unless you believe Mohammed was a moderate and a progressive.
Still havent got an answer on why Muslims in such large numbers take the violent passages to heart while Christians dont take the violent passages of the Bible to heart.
Why?
Richard,
I'm glad you got a kick out of my earlier comment, but if you ever read any Islamic history, you'll find that nobody - even scholars who are very critical of Islam - disputes that rejection of comparatively more barbaric clan rule was a major factor in shaping the religion. That said, I'm arguing for focusing on the future not the past, so I won't harp on that point.
Now, recall that renaissance-era Christians who were moderate and progressive were not inspired to liberalism by their faith -- it was outside ideas that reshaped them, then the religion. So of course progressive Islamic practice is progressive because of outside influences; the point is that the religion expands and changes for the better with time.
Now on to your question:
Islam is a contemporary religion and has the benefit of enlightenment thought already being developed. So you're wondering, why are its practitioners not so inclined towards progressive thought as Christians, Jews, whoever. Conceding, for argument's sake, that this is the case, here's an explanation for the different levels of willingness to take violent scripture, or backwards preaching to heart:
The literacy rates, poor social development, dishonest education system, and monopoly on media in many Muslim nations create an intellectual environment as bad as, or worse than, pre-enlightenment Europe. So you can't blame individual Muslims for not having read the Enlightenment's Greatest Hits any more than you could a European in the 12th century (that doesn't mean you forgive wrong-headed ideas, it just means you accept that even if change is slow in coming, that doesn't discredit an entire religion).
And as for Muslims raised in the West, or otherwise with access to progressive thought, consider this: the central conceit of radical Imams is that Islam is under seige, and that disapproving Christians and Jews want to end the religion. Pretty scary for any young person. Looking at some of the comments above, are you really surprised if the radical recruitment pitch finds listeners in the West? That's exactly why articulate people like our readers should put more effort into forward-thinking, actionable dialog.
david,
Is that why Mo wrote letters to the empeorer of the Bzantine Empire and the Persian empire because of gang like thugs? Sorry, your claim rings false.
"the point is that the religion expands and changes for the better with time."
Really? havent seen that happening anywhere in the Islamic world. Even when Muslims immigrate to the superior West, they still want to import their 7th Century barbaric cult with them.
So you blame Islamic culture for them being backwards? LOL You just made my arguement. Thanks
And its our fault they listen to the "radical" Imans. Never the Muslims fault for anything, is there?
Damn. Sorry. Mohammed wrote letters to the rulers demanding they accept Islam or else. My bad.
Here is a poll with some alarming numbers.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467849587&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
In a poll conducted five months ago, and broadcast on Britain's Channel 4 TV, nearly 25% of British Muslims said the July 7, 2005, terror bombings in London, which killed 52 innocent commuters, were justified. Another 30% said they would prefer to live under strict Islamic Sharia law rather than England's democratic system.
Hey Richard,
Sorry man, you've just gotta read a little more about the development of Islam. I'm not saying it was a straightforward history, but you're arguing against any textbook or authoritative history available, however false my claims ring.
The polling data you posted is fascinating. I still don't think that changes my argument about why we should focus on the factors that shape problematic opinions. And on that note, let me correct your summary of my last argument:
It's not "Islamic culture," it's near Eastern tribal and clan mentality, combined with repressive states, that explains the lack of awareness of enlightenment thought in the Muslim Middle East. And as for regressive tendencies among Muslims in the West, the very depth of the problem proves my point: your arguments lend enough credence to the state-of-siege rhetoric used by radicals that they're finding sympathetic ears in the West. What a pity.
Since you haven't responded to my point that arguing 'against' a religion doesn't do any good, and a more nuanced argument could accomplish more, I guess you just agree with that but would rather keep voicing frustration with Islam. We'll have to agree to disagree on the merits of doing so, but I'm certainly glad that you're bringing new material into the comments forum.
"There are too many examples of Muslim communities that are enriched and improved by their religion to ignore."
How about "There are too many examples to ignore... of insh'Allah fatalism and the deep-seated egotism of the religion preventing Muslim communities from prospering."
Would the great-grandchildren of Greek 9/11 celebrators be particularly likely to be endanger America or be a financial drain on her homeland-security apparatus? No. Would the great-grandchildren of Muslims be particularly likely? Absolutely. We see this sort of outcome already in Europe.
The benefit of identifying the problem as Islam per se is that we can react in accordance with the problem and not in response to our wishes.
We should stop this immigration; and if the only way to do so is to stop immigration in general, so be it. Higher social security payments and the benefit of newcomers to the economy do not hold a candle to the multi-generational negatives that Muslims necessarily bring.
The point is not to understand the young Muslim male frightened by the purported animosity of non-Muslims; and anyway, if the young one converts and can be protected from his family and friends (can you believe it?), the fright ends.
The point is to defend ourselves from the young Muslim, and that protection is best accomplished -- for now and for later -- by exclusion, not accommodation.
"Since you haven't responded to my point that arguing 'against' a religion doesn't do any good."
But it does. I have educated many people on what Islam really is. They are shocked to find out whats really in the Qur'an and Islamic history. Honestly, I could care less what Muslims think about me or what I say. They arent my target. Im here to educate the non Muslims so they dont buy into the propagana by groups like CAIR or the multiculturalists. Islam is by nature, anti-West. Its suicide to allow it to florish in the West. Take Europe for example. Was the mass influx of Muslims in Europe a good thing or bad thing?
Im glad you found the polling "fascinating". Me, I found it disturbing that even when Muslims live in freedom, they rather live under Sharia law and support the murder of its citizens. But if you understood the mentality of the Ummah, you would understand.
So we're agreed: you want to encourage anti-Muslim attitudes that, according to experts like Bruce Hoffman, are exactly why some western Muslims embrace radicalism, and I want to encourage Muslims and non-Muslims alike to embrace progressive, respectful attitudes, while still being free to practice any faith they want (what's more American than that?). Awesome.
Learning about the truth about Islam, Mohammed and Islam's history is learning the truth. Why would that be a bad thing. Instead, why dont you encourage Muslims to own up to their violent, oppressive history instead of putting the burden on non Muslims to ignore it and smile and nod like good dhimmis?
"...exactly why some western Muslims embrace radicalism."
I want to encourage realistic attitudes on the part of non-Muslims. Some percentage of Muslims -- especially when faced with financial or relationship distress -- will embrace their tradition without any help from any of the people who contributed warnings to this thread.
At the heart of the deception is the idea that Islam is primarily a private religion that's compatible with pluralism. When Muslims are less than 1 percent of the population, the idea is more believable than it would be at 5 or 10 percent.
At least you see that Robert Spencer is really a NICE guy, compared to the people who contributed warnings to this thread. A nice guy doing an essential public service.
Here's an interview with a nay sayer about whom you'll hear more:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=AF613BFA-8E34-4A07-8DB4-20D89DE3D84B
"At the heart of the deception is the idea that Islam is primarily a private religion that's compatible with pluralism. When Muslims are less than 1 percent of the population, the idea is more believable than it would be at 5 or 10 percent."
I read somewhere that the 10 percent is the breaking point where Muslims start pushing Islam into their host nations society.
"At the heart of the deception is the idea that Islam is primarily a private religion that's compatible with pluralism. When Muslims are less than 1 percent of the population, the idea is more believable than it would be at 5 or 10 percent."
I read somewhere that the 10 percent is the breaking point where Muslims start pushing Islam into their host nations society.
The essayist Fjordman says 10, or maybe he says 10 to 15.
That article on numeric support for violent Jihad is striking; and yes, the notion that details like that are "fascinating" is not quite sufficient, is it? Remember, the numbers almost surely underestimate the real attitudes.
It takes time to move from welcoming Islam ("oh, I love your burkha!") to seeking ways to exclude it. One hopes the West will make the move soon.
I thought some of you might like to see this islamic teaching on the right way to beat one's wife:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018662.php
Presumably to condemn this is to make it harder to prevent such violence in the name of islam?
I am intrigued by your apparent stance, David. Presumably, you refrain from condemning the Klan on the grounds that people who choose to subscribe to that ideology will be harder to reach if you condemn them?
There are no passages in the Bible that command the eternal, never-ending, for all time, annihilation of peoples of other faiths.
The Koran contains these commands in spades against anyone not Islamic ("Infidels").
I rest my case.
Muslims Against Sharia congratulate David Horowitz FREEDOM CENTER and Mike Adams, Tammy Bruce, Phyllis Chesler, Ann Coulter, Nonie Darwish, Greg Davis, Stephen Gale, David Horowitz, Joe Kaufman, Michael Ledeen, Michael Medved, Alan Nathan, Cyrus Nowrasteh, Daphne Patai, Daniel Pipes, Dennis Prager, Luana Saghieh, Rick Santorum, Jonathan Schanzer, Christina Sommers, Robert Spencer, Brian Sussman, Ed Turzanski, Ibn Warraq and other speakers on the success of the Islamofascism Awareness Week.
Islamofascism (or Islamism) is the main threat facing modern civilization and ignorance about this threat is astounding. We hope that this event becomes regular and reaches every campus.
A great many Westerners do not see the clear distinction between Islam and Islamism (Islamofascism). They need to understand that the difference between Islam and Islamism (Islamofascism) is the same as the difference between Christianity and Christian Identity Movement (White Supremacy Movement).
Original post
Thanks for putting YOUR AL AQSA MOSQUE above the Israel temple mount, so I can see what YOUR AGENDA [in "arabist" foreign policy] is.
To the Arab Muslim anti-Israel propagandist:
1) Are you denying that the Arab racist attacks on Jews in Israel/”palestine” has started since 1838 (Safed) [so were the attacks in 1883, 1920, 1921, 1929 - Hebron, etc.]? 2) Had Israel be a (mostly) Arab-Muslim State, would the intolerant Arab-Muslim Goliath world not accept them?
3) Why is there a complete silence on the historical fact of Arab immigration late 1800s early 1900s into Israel/”palestine”?
4) What anti-Israel bigotry is stronger, the “Arab racism”; factor? or the ‘Islamic-Jihad’ factor?
5) ‘Moral equivalence’ Do you have Arab activists on behalf of Israeli victims, just like you have Jewish, Israeli, Zionists activists for the (so called) ‘Palestinian cause’ (whatever that is…)?
6) If humane Israel would really go after “unarmed poor palestinians” as the ‘Pallwood’ propagandists tell us, How many Arabs would have survived Israel’s might?
7) Who’s more at fault, the Arab Muslim “Palestinians” parents pushing for Shahid-isim, or the indoctrinating Mullahs, Imams in the holy Mosques for using “Palestinian” kids and women as human bombs and as human shields (so they can blame the Zionists when Arab kids die)?
8] What would have happened if Arab Muslim “Palestinians” would have invested as much energy in rebuilding their lives as they do in destroying both nations’ lives in fascistic Jihad, total hatred and campaign for GENOCIDE [to “drink the blood of the Jews” or to “push them all to the sea”, or to “wipe them off of map”]?
9) Why does “bad” IDF Israeli army announce an area residents’ civilians to evacuate before an operation against terrorists?
10) Why did Humane Israel’s IDF invented specially low range missiles designed to hit ONLY the [terror] target and minimize collateral damage?
11) When was the last time the “Palestinian” well oil-ed propaganda machine has retracted [or even apologized] for it’s usual PALLYWOOD fake images industry?
12) What’s the difference between a Christian in Indonesia, Buddhist in Thailand, Christian in Nigeria, in Philippines, Australians in Bali (2002), non Muslims in London (0707/2005), in Madrid (bombing), “not the-right-kind-of-Muslims” in Shiite-Sunni hateful massacres in Iraq, oppression & massacres in the “Islamic Republic of Iran”, and Israeli victims of the same “evil ideology”?
13) What’s a harder oppression, your “average” Arab Muslim regime’s on it’s own people, Hamas-tan Islamic Apartheid [which most “Palestinians” supported!] on non Muslims, or the pro-Jihad parents’ on their kids?
14) What would have happened if at least ONE Arab Muslim nation [regular or oil-ed one] would really care about the Arab [brothers, that since the 1960’s started to call themselves as] “Palestinians” and let them get off the terror slum into normality and even prosperity?
15) What part of ‘BLIND FASCISM’ do Arab-Muslims deny, the usual obsessed anti Israel demonization [no matter what Israel does] or the reluctance to see Israel’s super kind gestures for those that are trying to kill them [releases from prison, giving away own land vital to it’s security, humanitarian aid, etc.] not as goodness but as “weakness”?
16) Why is it that when Islamists terrorists [Hamas or Hezbullah, Islamic Jihad, etc.] succeed in making sure Arab kids die [with their known tactics of cowardly firing among or behind children, etc.] the Arabs, Muslims rejoice and the Israelis, Jews are saddened ?
16) How can land be an issue [or the blatant lies the Arab lobby’s financed: Jimmy Carter has said, though he admitted that Israel is a great equal democracy for all, Arabs and Jews alike!’] if “moderate” Palestinian official government still has venomous hatred and pro ‘death cult’ in it’s regular curriculum and on it’s official TV, or that such “moderate” Arab media outlets [like Al Jazeera] still glorify mass murder as “martyrdom”?
17) Who’s more powerful, the Arab Muslim Goliath Oil mafia “lobby” on the world or a Chinese, Italian, Israeli, Irish, pharmaceutical, cigarettes lobbyists in Washington?
18) Had the International Arab Muslim lobby of nations in the UN [or the EU] not threatened other nations to bash Israel 24/7 [motivated by intolerance only!], What would be then the outcome?
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/112523
Looks like the host cant defend his position anymmore
Muslims Against Sharia said
"A great many Westerners do not see the clear distinction between Islam and Islamism."
So did Mohammed teach Islam or Islamism was he conquered?
Opps that would be "when he conquered'
"So did Mohammed teach Islam or Islamism"
We believe that the Prophet taught Islam, but unless we get a time-machine we won't know for sure.
So Islam is conquering your neighbors and forcing Islam on the conquered? We agree.
we dont need a time machine, we have the Qur'an and hadiths.
"We believe that the Prophet taught Islam, but unless we get a time-machine we won't know for sure."
I have to point this out. Mohammed is suppose to be the prophet of Islam. You dont know for sure if he taught the religion he founded?
You asked
"did Mohammed teach Islam or Islamism"?
Its the same thing
"Its the same thing"
For ignorant people, yes. For educated people it is not. Islam is a religion. Islamism is a political ideology.
"For ignorant people, yes. For educated people it is not. Islam is a religion. Islamism is a political ideology."
Like I said, its the same thing. Until you come to grips of what Islam is and what Mohammed was, you will never have reform. You cant reform something if you dont acknowledge that its broke.
Ignorants do not understand the difference before the explanation; idiots after.
Why dont you explain it for us that are ignorant and idiots oh wise one?
Compare these two concepts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ideology
When you understand the difference between them, you will understand the difference between Islam and Islamism.
I dont buy it. Islam is politics hence Islamic law established by the founder of Islam. Thats what makes Islam different than all other religions. Thats what makes Islam so dangerous.
Thats why I would support the US government not recognizing Islam as a religion because of Islam's political ideology. Islam is a threat to our Constituion as long as the Constition protects Islam.
"I dont buy it."
Who gives a shit, really?
Anyone that doesnt want that death cult called Islam here in the West.
There are two kinds of assholes that deny the difference between Islam and Islamism. The first kind are terrorist Islamonazi scumbags. Guess who the second kind is.
Touchy today. Why is that? Because I dont believe you?
I don't care whether you believe me or not. That doesn't make you anything. However, having the same opinion on Islam as bin Laden has, kinda makes you a moron. Or Islamofascist. Your pick.
richard and others: your ignorance and intolerance is jaw-dropping. there are many, many problems with islam in the modern world. try to understand it, rather than pursue your polarising, and frankly moronic line of thought.
when someone starts to label something as broad as islam a 'death cult', it is clear that they are not motivated by a desire to understand and change the world for the better; rather it is deep-seated xenophobia and/or racism underlying their judgements.
I judge Islam by the Qur'an, the hadiths, the life of Mohammed and Islam's history. Tell me how that is "racist" or "xenphobic"
"Muslims Against Sharia" is suggesting an important distinction between islam and islamism. I might be persuaded of this - but, here's a challenge. If there is such a clear distinction, why does the umma insist on a separate (and weaker) declaration of human rights, rather than signing up to the Universal Declaration that the civilized world signed? Please correct me, but I understood it was because islam does not recognize a distinct polity, but only islam? That seems very close to an intrinsic 'islamism' to me.
"why does the umma insist on a separate (and weaker) declaration of human rights"?
That's not Ummah, that's the radical Muslim establishment who falsely claim to represent the Ummah as a whole. This is why it is so important to understand the difference between the radicals and the moderates.
MAS: is your position consistent with this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam
...I suppose one could define the countries and jurists behind the Cairo declaration to be "radical muslim establishment." So, on that basis, can we reasonably expect to see prominent muslims (eg. CAIR, the Muslim Council of Britain, etc) agreeing that the Cairo declaration represents a dilution of human rights?
You see, my anxiety about this theme is that the Cario declaration came about, I undertood (might be wrong, of course...) because muslims cannot believe in a source of authority higher than the Koran. And, as such, the Koran (warts and all) is therefore a higher authority on human rights than the Helsinki declaration, which derives from/limits powers of states. I don't think the Cairo declaration is an especially 'radical' muslim proclamation, it is simply an insistence that all law should derive from - or be consistent with - sharia. Hence the worries about the very blurry distinction betweeen islam and islamism.
Cairo Declaration is an Islamofascist document based on Islamic supremacy doctrine.
My Allah?
Describing the entity that I admire and look up to.
“God did not create man but man created god in his own image.”
When I was young I never understood what it meant. Now I do. Here it is.
Brothers, please do not hang around at www.news.faithfreedom.org.
If you ever leave Islam or do certain things that are forbidden then Allah will burn you in hell FOREVER.
• Allah will peel off your skin head to toe while you are conscious.
• Allah will then cut you into pieces.
• He will then put salt and paper on your flesh.
• If you become unconscious with pain then he will provide you with more consciousness to ensure you feel maximum pain.
• And please, do not bring up empathy, compassion, sympathy, pity, forgiveness in this case because my compassionate Allah knows the best.
• Then he will burn you on fire.
• If you ask for water to drink then my dear, all merciful, compassionate, Almighty Allah will give you molten lava to drink.
• If you started to die, my Almighty dear Allah will give you another life and another, and yet another to watch you suffer forever.
This is the Allah I admire, I love and I consider my ideal. This is my message to you.
There is no god but Allah. I am the messenger and founder of submission. Surrender, submit your mind.
By the command of Allah I describe to you above characteristic of the entity I look up to.
Manmade Humane Geneva Convention will not apply. Forget about human rights as well.
ACLU (American Civil Liberty Union) cannot defend you.
Do not even mention “Cruel and unusual punishment”
ICJ (International Court of Justice) wouldn’t have jurisdiction there to protect you.
Let Western AI (Amnesty International) cry watching the punishment.
Even though majority of the people today, however self-centered, imperfect, prone with desire to take revenge, wouldn’t prescribe above extreme torture as punishment to even mass murderers or rapists but please do not accuse my Allah of being sadistic because Allah knows better.
Now,
1. From the above description of the creator as it is described by the person, the founder of “Submission” did you learn more about Allah or about that person, the messenger, the founder?
2. What do you think about the character, psyche, soul, and deepest darkest sadistic desires of the person who describes above characteristic of the creator, the entity he admires, loves, holds as ideal and look up to?
3. What do you think about the sense of right from wrong of the 1.2 billion followers who cannot see the evils and sadistic nature in the above description of punishment? What has happened to their soul?
4. What do you expect from the 1.2 billion followers of this founder? Peace? Or Terrorism?
Most of the Western leaders and philosophers already figured out the falsehood and some of the filth of religious teaching. That is one of the many reasons why Old Testament was washed to New Testament. But the New Testament was not clean enough. Therefore, they came up with the "Separation of Church and State" and implemented it. Can Muslims do the same?
Have you heard of Christian Republic of Canada, France, Australia, Japan or South Korea etc.?
Have you heard of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Indonesia, Iran, etc.?
Think about it.
Feel free to respond to timf1234@yahoo.com
I was born and raised in an Islamic country, have lived and breathe with Muslims for decades. I know every genetic code of Muslims. I know Islamic neurons. I know every blood cell of Muslims. Muslims are the victim of Islam. Let's help cure them of the disease (“submission” of their brain) that directly attacks their neural network. I am aware of the death of their soul.
We should fight for the "Right to blasphemy with impunity"
This is very important because the only way to make Muslims aware of the sickness of Islam is to talk about it. Hundreds of thousands of Ex-Muslims are hiding in the West from the wrath of Islam. We need some protection before we can come out in public. Gullible West has no idea of Islamic teaching. We, ex-Muslims do. We will make Islam stark naked on the street.
Thank you for inserting a little sanity into a discussion that is fast approaching a state of paranoia in the hands of people who know so little about which they speak. It's amazing, in fact, to discover how many people have suddenly not only discovered Islam (as though it didn't exist pre 9/11), but become experts in it as well.
The Qur'an, in fact, has always been a very difficult book to interpret. It has also from the onset of Islam had as many different schools of interpretation as there are among Christians interpreting the Bible. In fact, the interpretation of the extremists represented by al-Qaeda is an aberration, radically re-interpreting the Qur'an particularly with regard to the justification of violence.
As for the person who asks why there are so many more Muslims interpreting their scripture violently than Christians or Jews, I would say it has more to do with historical circumstances than the nature of the scripture itself as there have been times when Christians and Jews have justified their wars and brutalities with reference to the Bible, as well. Where, for instance, was the Christian critique of the unprovoked attack on Iraq? Most conservatives were cheering that on. Many conservative Christians are now calling for an attack on Iran. And let's not forget the Crusades and the Inquisition and the anti semitic violence done in the name of a particular biblical interpretation.
I think if you add up the bodies killed in the name of a particular interpretation of holy scripture Christians would be right up there.
John Hubers
Was the Ummah represented when Mohammed and the Caliphates spread East and West by the sword?
"In fact, the interpretation of the extremists represented by al-Qaeda is an aberration, radically re-interpreting the Qur'an particularly with regard to the justification of violence."
Does that mean Mohammed, the founder of Islam, misinterped the Qur'an when he was expanding Islam by violence?
As for the Crusades, they were called up after 400 years of Islam pushing its way into Europe and to reclaim the Christian lands stolen by Islam. A very noble and Christian thing to do.
"Take Samuel I 15:2-3: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."
Destroying the Amalekites is a bit different than making war on the unbeliever. One is specific and the other is open ended. One reason why Christians arent going to war with the Amalekited and Muslims are still at war with the unbelievers. The other is that Jesus is a prophet of peace and Mo was a prophet of war.
Wow, no rebutals? What a shocker.
On what grounds do you say that Mohammed was a prophet of war?
Ummmm....that he spread Islam by the sword. The Qur'an calls for spreading Islam by any means. That the Qur'an even has a chapter on war booty. Mohammed lead his army in battle. Mohammed had people that offended him assassinated. Shall I go on?
"Wow, no rebutals? What a shocker."
Rebuttal for an Anonymous? Grow some balls before asking for a rebuttal.
I guess not :-)
LOL
Its ok. I expect the dhimmis to attack the messenger. :-)
Whats wrong MAS, cant refute what I said?
MAS,
I see you are making a fool at Foe's Anvil as well :-)
Anonymous,
Which part of "grow some balls if you want a rebuttal" don't you understand? Your parents must be closely related.
Like I said, you cant dispute anything so you go with insults. Thank you for proving my point. :-)
Too busy getting shot down at Foehammer to get shot down here? :-)
Which part of "I don't want to have a discussion with an Anonymous coward" don't you understand, you dumbshit?
Thats your excuse? LOL
Cowards hurl insults instead of defending their position.
Why should anyone give a shit about what someone with no balls thinks? Are you that retarded to get it that I don't want to have a discussion with an anonymous?
My My. You are even nastier here than at Foehammers. I guess when you cant dispute what I say, you have to use strawman attacks because the facts are not on your side.
What you say means nothing if you are too cowardly to put your name behind your words.
Pretty lame excuse. Cant refute what I say so you need some excuse not to answer. Like you name means anything. You are anonymous as much as I am. If you are too scared to answer or have nothing to come back with, just say so. Nothing wrong with being wrong. Strawman arguments is beneath you though.
Yes, because we all know there's no good reason to remain anonymous when criticizing Islam. None of us value the safety of our children, family, friends and neigbhors. Let's all just put our lives into the hands of the Ummah and hope for the best.
Let's tell the police to stop patrolling our streets, too, and ask the burglars to leave us enough money to buy groceries.
MAS, you need to really learn to behave yourself. Your Islam is showing.
Foe,
Very good point. We all know what happens if one is critical of Mo-bomb-ed or Islam. Of course this terror tactic can be traced back to Mo-bomb-ed himself when he would have people assassinated for mocking him.
Whats wrong MAS? Decided to just take your beatings at Foehammer? :-)
Anonymous,
If you want to have a discussion, you need to answer a question: how fucking stupid are you?
What question was I suppose to answer?
Now it's too questions:
1. Are you fucking blind?
2. How fucking stupid are you?
Foe is right.
Your Islam is showiing
I'm not hiding my Islam just as you are not hiding your stupidity.
How am I showing my "stupidity"?
Care to elaborate?
For starters, you are too fucking stupid to answer a simple question.
Like what?
Exactly
LOL
No wonder you lose debates over at Foehammer as well.
The only place I can possibly lose a debate is in your head.
Well you havent proved much of anything with your attacks, insults, and anger except that you can not debate in a rational and logical manner.
Is civil discourse beneath you?
"you can not debate in a rational and logical manner."
It is impossible to debate a dumbshit who refuses to answer questions.
Hey -- Why don't you all join some of the discussions on the main page? I'd like to hear what you have to say about some of these other issues that we're writing about.
Regards, JK
Thanks for proving my point. Debate in a civil manner is impossible. Just like reform in Islam is impossible.
Whats wrong MAS? You run out of insults? Try a civil debate now, it might be more interesting.
"Try a civil debate now, it might be more interesting."
How can you have a debate with a dumb fuck who refuses to answer questions? I keep asking you the same question, but instead of answering it, you accusing me of refusing to debate you. For the last time, how fucking stupid are you?
Try asking a civil question.
And why are you so angry? what have I said to warrant such ire?
I am not angry, I'm trying to quantify your stupidity.
You are angry and you use strawman arguements becaue you cant defend your position. Sad, actually.
You are a dumbfuck who wants to have a debate, but refuses to answer questions.
Im not playing your silly games with your childish questions like "how dumb are you". Be a man and ask real questions.
The “how fucking dumb are you” question was preceded by “why should I waste my time on discussion with an anonymous” question, but you chose not to answer that one either.
We are all anonymous. You are just looking for an excuse not to embarrass yourself.
The question “how fucking stupid are you” was not an empty question. Anyone can write under “Anonymous”. Choosing a unique screen name does not reveal your identity, but deprives you of ability of saying something stupid and then denying that it was aid by you. This is the reason I see no point of arguing with “Anonymous.” And if you are too fucking stupid to understand simple concepts, what makes you qualified to discuss complicated concepts?
Like I couldnt just come up with a different screen name whenever I feel like it. You know this is me and you are too scared to debate Islam with me because ironically Islam is on my side. Nevermind the fact its only us 2 on here so I doubt anyone else under the name "anonymous" will be popping in on here.
You couldnt hack it with me at Foehammer's and you cant here. If you are just going to use personal attacks and strawman arguements, why do you just go away. I hate for you to keep wasting your time. :-)
"Like I couldnt just come up with a different screen name whenever I feel like it."
If you are too fucking stupid to create a screen name (you only need to do it once) you shouldn’t be concerning yourself with complicated issues.
"You couldnt hack it with me at Foehammer's"
That’s exactly what I was referring to when I said it is pointless to argue with an anonymous. Foehammer blocks/deletes my comments when he is unable to respond, but an asswipe like you has no integrity, so you make it sound like I cannot debate a dimwit like Foehammer. There are two reasons you prefer to remain anonymous. You are either too fucking stupid to create a screen name or you don’t want to own up to your own words.
So why do you keep coming here?
As for your posts being deleted, its mostly likely due to the fact that you verbally attack and demeen people like you try to do to me here. He even watned people about it on its own thread. Perhaps you should chill out and debate in a civil manner.
"As for your posts being deleted, its mostly likely due to the fact that you verbally attack and demeen people "
That's not the point. When you claim that I couldn't hack it, it shows what a lying sack of shit you are. You, being a lying sack of shit is the reason why you remain anonymous.
Now Im a liar? Wow, your attacks know no bounds. You couldnt hack it, so you resort to personal aatacks like you are doing right now. Again, thanks for proving my point.
Going back to you being too fucking stupid. If my comments are being blocked it doesn’t mean that I can’t hack it. When you claim that I can’t hack it when you know that my comments are being blocked there are only too possibilities. You are either too fucking stupid or a fucking liar. My guess, it's probably both.
Still angry I see. LOL
Again thanks for proving my point. You make it way too easy. :-)
Many people talk about the need to reform Islam. Now you can stop talking and start helping.
With the help of our readers we went through the Koran and removed every verse that we believe did not come from Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate. However, it is possible that we missed something, and we could use your help. If you find verses in the reformed version of the Koran that promote violence, divisiveness, religious or gender superiority, bigotry, or discrimination, please let us know the number of the verse and the reason why it should be removed. Please email your suggestions to koran-AT-reformislam.org.
When we finish editing process, we would like to publish Reform Koran in as many languages as possible. If you could help with translation or distribution of the Reform Koran, please email us at koran-AT-reformislam.org. If you could provide financial support, please visit our support page.
In Memoriam of Aqsa Parvez.
http://www.reformislam.org/reform.php
So Mohammed lied about the violent verses in the Qur'an? Isnt Mo the perfect man? How could he lie about the violent verses? I am shocked. We'll any man that would marry and have sex with a little girl would be capable of anything I suppose.
Finally, he's gone. :-)
"Moderate" Indonesia Needs 17K Troops to Protect Christians During Christmas
http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2007/12/moderate-indone.html
Can anyone explain why?
Awwwww......MAS ran away. LOL
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